Ever wondered what was under the floor in that triangular space under the front storage area(anchor locker) ?
This is on a 30' Sea Villa, so I'm not sure how similar the larger boats are, but I suspect they must be close.
On my boat there was an old unused oil tank for a diesel heater that I removed and got to thinking about the condition of the floor,etc.
This was a plywood floor, notched to fit between the ribs. Under this was dense yellow foam, probably Urethane. Over time Urethane can absorb water, even though it's 'closed cell'. (Ask someone with an old Boston Whaler). Mine was about 25 percent saturated (and heavy), as it turned out.
I broke out the foam, down to the hull. The foam is fairly tough, but separated from the hull itself quite easily. This was probably installed by the factory, as I found three loose pieces of scrap aluminum embedded in the foam.
The black that is visible in the photos is from the old oil tank seepage that also permeated the foam in places, mixing with water and making a tarry mess in spots.
The newly exposed hull looked fine under the foam, except for a couple of small areas where there was white pasty looking goop that revealed shiny aluminum when scraped away. Luckily this was very localised and I'll repair this with epoxy.
I was debating whether to leave this area empty, after cleaning, epoxy repairs, and final epoxy coating, but decided that would mean having to install a bilge pump to drain off the inevitable rain,etc leakage. The factory drilled small holes with tubes, just at the level of the old floor, that drained off water (well, most of it) into the main bilge.
Some of this water will have been from condensation dripping from under the alloy deck. Tight fitting foam will help this in future.
I decided to re-foam this space with 'pour in place' foam, trimmed level and then sealed with epoxy, and then glassed over with fiberglass cloth (Biax or similar) with epoxy, to create a new floor. If this goes up the side of the hull a couple of inches, it should be pretty watertight. Eventually I would like to spray foam between all the ribs and beams under the deck, but that's another time. I still might glass a hole in the floor at the back and put in a small bilge pump. This could actually exit up to one of the troughs around the access hatch, which have their own drain holes out the side of the hull.
Jay
Foam Removal and Floor Re-build
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Re: Foam Removal and Floor Re-build
Hi Jay,
You are right that the yellow foam is original to most of our boats. And you are right that this "closed cell" foam eventually absorbs a lot of water. There appears to have been two different materials originally sprayed into place. Against the aluminum is a denser bonding material and then the main expanding foam is sprayed in after.
The problem with refilling the area with foam is that you will never know for sure whether or not it is dry at the bottom of this space. (This becomes really important for those of us who store our boats where it freezes for part of the year).
If you do refill this space, I would suggest including a straight tube to the deepest part so that you can use a dipstick to confirm whether all is remaining dry at the bottom.
On the topic of obtaining a water tight bond between the hull and epoxy cover over the foam, do not skimp on sanding the aluminum just before applying the epoxy. Even the best epoxy will not bond correctly to the invisible aluminum oxide which seals all exposed aluminum. (I have proven this to myself . . . more than once )
My "2 cents worth" would be to leave this area empty so that you can always know what is going on down there. If you do gather rainwater or condensation, it can be easily removed with a shop vac.
BTW . . . . can you still switch your original post to the Tech Section of the forum, so that we keep all the "boat building stuff" in the same location ?
Rob
You are right that the yellow foam is original to most of our boats. And you are right that this "closed cell" foam eventually absorbs a lot of water. There appears to have been two different materials originally sprayed into place. Against the aluminum is a denser bonding material and then the main expanding foam is sprayed in after.
The problem with refilling the area with foam is that you will never know for sure whether or not it is dry at the bottom of this space. (This becomes really important for those of us who store our boats where it freezes for part of the year).
If you do refill this space, I would suggest including a straight tube to the deepest part so that you can use a dipstick to confirm whether all is remaining dry at the bottom.
On the topic of obtaining a water tight bond between the hull and epoxy cover over the foam, do not skimp on sanding the aluminum just before applying the epoxy. Even the best epoxy will not bond correctly to the invisible aluminum oxide which seals all exposed aluminum. (I have proven this to myself . . . more than once )
My "2 cents worth" would be to leave this area empty so that you can always know what is going on down there. If you do gather rainwater or condensation, it can be easily removed with a shop vac.
BTW . . . . can you still switch your original post to the Tech Section of the forum, so that we keep all the "boat building stuff" in the same location ?
Rob
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- Posts: 88
- Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:08 pm
- Location: Nanaimo, B.C.
Re: Foam Removal and Floor Re-build
Rob wrote:Hi Jay,
My "2 cents worth" would be to leave this area empty so that you can always know what is going on down there. If you do gather rainwater or condensation, it can be easily removed with a shop vac.
BTW . . . . can you still switch your original post to the Tech Section of the forum, so that we keep all the "boat building stuff" in the same location ?
Rob
Hmmm, you make a good points about the foam and these are why I was waffling over re-filling it. Maybe I'll just do the epoxy repairs and leave it at that for now.
As far as moving to the Tech section, I'm not sure how to do that without reposting. Perhaps a moderator could switch it over.
Cheers,
Jay
Re: Foam Removal and Floor Re-build
Hi Jay,
Another question . . . .
Do you have any idea what was causing the aluminum corrosion in the bright spots ?
These Alcan/Alwest hulls are amazingly corrosion free, whether they are in fresh or salt water.
The balance of your cleaned bilge is proof of this.
When I acquired our boat many years ago, I saw this kind of bright pitting on the outside, because she had been painted with copper-based anti-fouling paint. Was there any copper or iron in contact with these corroded areas ?
Another theory . . . aluminum needs oxygen to create the protective aluminum oxide layer. I wonder if the chemical reactions amongst water, fuel sludge and deteriorating foam created an oxygen starved environment ?
Rob
Another question . . . .
Do you have any idea what was causing the aluminum corrosion in the bright spots ?
These Alcan/Alwest hulls are amazingly corrosion free, whether they are in fresh or salt water.
The balance of your cleaned bilge is proof of this.
When I acquired our boat many years ago, I saw this kind of bright pitting on the outside, because she had been painted with copper-based anti-fouling paint. Was there any copper or iron in contact with these corroded areas ?
Another theory . . . aluminum needs oxygen to create the protective aluminum oxide layer. I wonder if the chemical reactions amongst water, fuel sludge and deteriorating foam created an oxygen starved environment ?
Rob
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- Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:42 pm
- Location: Toronto
- Contact:
Re: Foam Removal and Floor Re-build
Hello everyone,
All alcan 290's are full of foam, from front to back, and this is what provides structure, stiffness, and warmth, and float for the disaster. Yes a 290 will float when filled with water. So foaming the front triangular space may provide some grace in case your Sea Villa goes into a hard object and rips the hull, providing some stuffing to keep water from gushing through, which may get you back to shore for repair. I doubt the small triangular section would keep your boat up.
I have heard from the owner of eastern marine, that corrosion from the inside has knocked a few boats out of commission, usually due to the bad grounding of the boat in a nasty marina with poor electrical. To repair is almost impossible. As you have shown to see the trouble is not possible.
We own a 290, and i have scratched my head as to how to remove the stuff, when and if i would want to do a hull repair. That is the downside of the foam. You cannot weld. But now i know how much invasive work is required to remove it.
Thanks for the pictures.
Robert Stork
All alcan 290's are full of foam, from front to back, and this is what provides structure, stiffness, and warmth, and float for the disaster. Yes a 290 will float when filled with water. So foaming the front triangular space may provide some grace in case your Sea Villa goes into a hard object and rips the hull, providing some stuffing to keep water from gushing through, which may get you back to shore for repair. I doubt the small triangular section would keep your boat up.
I have heard from the owner of eastern marine, that corrosion from the inside has knocked a few boats out of commission, usually due to the bad grounding of the boat in a nasty marina with poor electrical. To repair is almost impossible. As you have shown to see the trouble is not possible.
We own a 290, and i have scratched my head as to how to remove the stuff, when and if i would want to do a hull repair. That is the downside of the foam. You cannot weld. But now i know how much invasive work is required to remove it.
Thanks for the pictures.
Robert Stork